TherePodcast - Craig Newmark - Craigslist.org
 
Listen to our premier podcast with Craig Newmark,  Founder, Chairman, Customer Service Representative of Craigslist.org. In this interview, Rick Mavrovich asks Craig how he got there and built an organization that “does well by doing good”.
 
 
 
[music]
Rick:    Good morning everyone and welcome to this week’s pod cast.  It’s actually our premiere pod cast and we have a very special guest, famous Craig Newmark of the famous Craig’s List.  
    Craig, welcome and thank you so much for coming.
Craig:    Hey.  I’m glad to be here.
Rick:    Craig.  I think that your…it’s safe to say that your brand is one of the most well known brands around the world, especially relative to the size of your organization.  And, many people have heard of Craig’s List.  
    I recently watched a film that’s called 24 Hours on Craig’s List and it was very funny.  At the end of the film people asked, “Who’s Craig?”  And there were many people that said, “He doesn’t exist.”  “He’s not a real person.”  Other people said, “Well, he likes to have a lot of sex.”  “He likes to watch Star Trek a lot and play Dungeons and Dragons.”
    So, for the sake of the people, who really don’t know you, why don’t you tell us your story; how you began.  Who are you?  And prior to Craig’s List what did you do?
Craig:    Basically I’m just a guy, originally an East Coaster…been in San Francisco about 13 years.  And I just started something simple, you know, an events list.  But, I follow through with what I do.  I listen really hard to people and try to do what makes sense and then just keep doing it.
    In a way that’s the story of Craig’s List, with one notable exception.  I do realize I’m not a very good manager.  And that’s why Jim Buckmaster really runs things right now, as of roughly 2000.  He makes things happen and that means I can devote myself full-time to customer service.
Rick:    So, how did you come to the decision that you needed somebody to come in as CEO, to run your organization.  I mean it’s not…I mean, I can tell you personally, it’s not easy for any entrepreneur to let go.  What made it easy for you?  Or, what brought you to that decision?
Craig:    Basically I could see that there were an increasing number of internal problems and that I don’t have the temperament, sometimes, to make tough decisions.  Jim does that and he does a much better job than I ever did.
Rick:             And, how long is Jim now, at the helm?
Craig:    I forget exactly when we made this formal.  But, it’s been over six years.  He does his thing, as he needs to.  Me?  I do grant myself some luxury of working more out of my home office than our office proper…and that’s what I’ve been doing now.  I’ve been dealing with a lot of situations involving spamming or attempted scams.  We’re getting good at preventing that.
Rick:    Well, that seems to be the hot topic, now-a-days, on the internet.  I’ve just read a report that 92 plus percent of all internet traffic is Spam.  Would you agree with that figure?
Craig:    I think it’s much, much less than that.
Rick:             It is?
Craig:    Our site, the figures I guess, would be much lower since…well, since we trust our community, we turn over the ability to remove stuff from the site, by flagging it.  And also we can take a look at what’s being flagged and identify even more stuff to be flagged.
    We are not monitoring, we are just taking advantage of what people are doing for us, in the community.
Rick:    Know what, you brought up the topic of trust, which I really do want to touch upon later on…but I really want our listeners to understand the impact that Craig’s List has had on the world and here’s some statistics.  They may be a little outdated, so Craig, feel free to correct me, but, you are one of the top ten most popular sites on the internet.  You have about ten million users around the world.  You basically have turned the world of publishing upside down.
Case in point, I remember getting the Sunday Times and seeing 40 plus pages of classifieds.  I’ve picked it up recently and there were only four pages of classifieds.  So, basically your site can be attributed to removing billions of dollars from the bottom line of other companies.  What do you have to say to that?
Craig:    Well, there’s a whole bunch of effects there.  First of all the discussion, which is pretty common these days, is “What affect are we having on newspapers?”  And most of the affect we’ve had has been exaggerated.  It’s been exaggerated in a big way.
    We do get some constant ties and newspapers, already would, but it’s other sites, for example; Auto Treasure or Monster, that are getting the bulk of the page listings.  A lot of what we get are ads that would have never made it into the newspaper.
    Niche publications and print, also contribute to this, including The Penny Saver and the Auto Trader classified papers.  Those are the ones that you see at convenience stores.
    But, newspapers have much bigger problems.  Picture a newspaper chain, which try to go after high profit margins, that’s a really big problem.  And, most fundamentally, newspapers have lost a lot of trust.  People see there are a lot of situations, where people like politicians lie and the mainstream publications know they’re lying, but don’t call the politicians on the lies.  And a lot of it’s pretty blatant.
Rick:    The way I can interpret what you just said is that, many of the big media companies are putting profit for their original purpose.
Craig:    That’s it.  Newspapers use to be community services.  Now, many cases they’re regarded as profit centers.  Now they don’t work terribly well to getting a lot of getting good investigative journalism out there.
Rick:    Well, then how are you managing your bottom line?  I mean, obviously you’ve been around for several years and you basically offer most of your services for free, besides job postings.  So, how does Craig’s List maintain sustainability on their bottom line?
Craig:    We’ve made some decisions, based on our values.  The most fundamental of which is treating other people like we want to be treated.  That means our site is almost completely free.  But we do have bills to pay and stuff beyond that.  So, we ask the people of our community, “What should we charge for?”  And people tell us, “Charge people who are already paying more money, for less effective ads.”
    The consensus is that we can pay for help wanted ads and real estate ads.  In practice we do a little on that.  We charge for job ads in seven cities, and we charge for apartment listings, in New York City only, that’s based on the request of the people we’re charging, because they wanted the quality of the site and the listings to be higher.
Rick:    So, in other words, you reached out to your community and then you asked them what would be appropriate.
Craig:    Now, that was five or six years ago and so far…so far people seem very happy with that.   There are a lot of people who think that it would just be okay if we ran Google style text ads, or whatever, but we have no interest in doing that.
Rick:    Can you share a story with all listeners of something that makes you go to bed at night and helps you rock your head to sleep and say, “You know what, even if we lose money we did the right thing.”  Or, “We made a difference.”
Craig:    Here’s two kinds of stories, generically speaking.  You’ll forgive me, but doing customer service like this, mostly I deal with problems and that colors my thinking sometimes.  
    But we do get a lot of fan mail from people who often got married, through ads in our site.  Or, who found their jobs and a place to live, from our site.  Sometimes they were able to furnish their whole apartment, from our site, that kind of thing.
    For me personally, now and then our site helps people locate a lost dog or cat.  And since I really love dogs and cats, that feels really good.
Rick:    I remember watching the film, there was an extraordinary story of a woman in Greece painting by the water.  And, when she was asked what are you doing there, by another couple that happened to by passing by, she said, “You’re not going to believe it, but did you ever hear of Craig’s List?”  
    The other two said, “Yes we did.”  And she said, “Well, I read this posting about three months ago, on Craig’s List, about this couple that was selling everything that the own, so that they can travel around the world.”  And that really resonated with the artist.  
    So, she said, “I’ve decided to come out here and experience life more fully.”  And the couple looked at each other and said, “That was us.”  
    And, for me, that was a profound story about the connections that you’re allowing people to make, even if you have the classifies, like in the New Yorker or The New York Times.  You know, people seeking platonic relationships or, you know, people seeking a butler for hire, whatever it may be.  
            Because you’re offering it for free, it sounds like you really have enabled the people around the world to connect in a way that was never possible before.
 
Craig:    Maybe we do, since our site kind of has the atmosphere of an online flea market, which is important to people.  Flea markets are as much about socializing as they are about commerce.  It does feel pretty good and that’s how I feel when I think about it.  
But everyday I’m in the trenches, mostly dealing with bad guys.  And there’s not a lot of bad guys, percentage wise, on our site, but since the site is now fairly big, there’s enough to keep us pretty busy.
Rick:    So, how does a day look for you, in the trenches?
Craig:    I get up.  I check email out.  I check flagging reports.  Then I go get coffee and read the paper.  Then I go to the office and do more of the same customer service, lunch, more customer service.  
    I usually head home mid-afternoon and I just repeat the pattern; more customer service.  I may go out that evening, but every night, usually around 10 or 11, I do a quick bit of triage, doing some customer service and I will defer some to the morning.
Rick:    But how does customer service look like?
Craig:    I get a whole bunch of emails and I look at a whole bunch of flagging reports and have to decide what to do.  I am pursuing some bad guy, spam-a-tisers.  After doing this quite a while, I’ve gotten kind of good at smelling out at scam.  So has my entire team.
    I should mention, I’m only part of a customer service team run by a guy named Clint Powell, and they all do a better job than I do.
Rick:    How large is your customer service team?
Craig:    Well, that depends on who do you include in that?  Roughly there’s 23 people in the company.  Thirteen are tech.  The rest are customer service in one slave or another.
Rick:    Now, Craig, weren’t you acquired awhile ago by, I believe it was E-bay?
Craig:    No.  A former employee sold the equity I had given to him, to E-bay.  But, E-bay did not buy it from us and they haven’t invested in us.
Rick:    Have they attempted at all to insert their influence on Craig’s List?
Craig:    Not really.  They have helped us in some regards.  For example, they’ve helped in particular, when it comes to…when it comes to contacts of ISP’s for chasing down bad guys.
Rick:    So, actually they’ve brought something to the table?
Craig:    Yes.  Well, they’ve helped out in, just kind of a good neighborly way, in that sometimes people that abuse sites and they abuse departments of websites, will help out by contacting another abuse handler, at another company, just to help out.  And I did a little bit of that about a half hour ago.
Rick:    Well, let me ask you this Craig.  Maybe you’re not the right person to ask, but, how does it feel to be an employee of Craig’s List?  I mean, are the other employees excited to get up in the morning and come into the office?
    Do they feel that their mission driven?  Do they feel that they’re making a difference?  Or, is it a job for most of them?
Craig:    I think they feel good about it.  But, I don’t ask because that feels a little obtrusive.  But, everyone at the company seems to believe in the mission, which is ultimately to give people a break.
Rick:    Well, that’s a clear enough mission.  Actually I’d looked at your site and you basically translated your mission into what works, which is giving people a voice.  A sense of trust and even intimacy, consistency of down to earth values, simplify…I think we can definitely say that about your site.  No charges, except for job postings, freshness of material, no ads, particularly no banner ads.
Craig:    Yeah, you got the idea.  Remember, we also do charge for apartment ads in one city, under unusual circumstances, but that’s what people wanted.
Rick:    Well, let’s talk about the trust now.  How is trust a part of Craig’s List.  I mean you did mention that you have empowered many of the community members to flag if something is not appropriate or if it’s Spam, and let them control the content.
    But, how else have you created trust?  Not only online, but also in your office.
Craig:    Well, we’ve established an expectation that the people using our site are overwhelming trust worthy.  That there are bad guys out there, but we’ll work with the community in dealing with the bad guys.  And, people see that we follow through with it.  We do a more serious job than most companies and we just keep plugging away.
Rick:    Well, what else do you have to say about trust?  Because I know, in the media recently, there was a lot about Craig’s List and the trust out there.
Craig:    Well, the bottom line is that we behave in a trustworthy way.  We follow through and keep working at it and that works.
Rick:    Well, what advise would you give to a CEO of another company?  Let’s say non…a traditional company, that is looking to change and bring more trust into the organization?  How does one do that?
Craig:    I’d say, start by taking the attitude that you’re going to treat other people like you want to be treated, which means, not only talking about customer service, but following through with it.
Rick:    Craig, several years ago I was asked to turn around a company.  And the ingredient, the most important ingredient was hoping the employees understand that the foundation for everything is trust.  Letting them feel that they are the most valuable asset in an organization.  Hence, part of the triple bottom line is the people portion.  What would you say is the most valuable asset of Craig’s List?
Craig:    I guess it’s the whole culture we have.  The culture of trust and the way that we maintain it, particularly under Jim’s leadership.
Rick:    What’s the biggest advice you would give someone else, wanting to build an organization that makes a difference?
Craig:    For someone trying to build an organization, try to keep it small.  Since the more people you have in an organization…well, people tend to tell their boss what their boss wants to hear.  And when your boss is telling his boss what he wants to hear, you have trouble.  So, you want to keep it small.  And you just want to treat other people like you want to be treated.
Rick:    What would you say to the business leaders that feel that growth is the number one thing in an organization?  For example, Fortune magazine just ran story about the CEO of GEO, Jeffrey Immelt, and the CEO of Proctor and Gamble, of how they’re driven to grow their [inaudible 17:04] organization even larger.
Craig:    I’d say growth is good.  But, first treat your customers well.  And the bigger companies usually forget about that.
Rick:    So, what’s next for Craig?
Craig:    Me personally or for the company?
Rick:    No, you personally.
Craig:    Just more of the same.  I am a…let’s say, working with people who are changing the way journalism and media works.  I’ve found some people who are a lot smarter than me at it and I’m promoting some of their efforts, including things like the Sunlight Foundation and Congresspedia [sp 17:42], the Center for Citizens Media, New Assignment.net and sometime soon, something called Daylife.  L - I - F - E, Daylife.com.
Rick:    And what is that?
Craig:    That’s a new kind of news aggregator, which I can’t talk much about now, beyond that.
Rick:    Okay.  How about the first one.  What was the name again?  Congress.
Craig:    Congresspedia, is basically Wikipedia for members of the US Congress.  In addition they’re building tools now, which look at federal data bases and may be able to help any of us, including new investigative journalists.  
    It will help people figure out things like what lobbyists are paying what Congressman for what Legislative results.
Rick:    Boy, it sounds like you’re involved in a lot of things besides just growing Craig’s List.  How do you do it?  I mean, I know you’ve created somewhat of a life of balance, but, you know, sometimes I would send you an email or two in the morning and you would respond right away.
Craig:    There is that issue.  But, for the most part these other efforts, my real contribution to them is basically…basically talking about them.  Because, since people are still obsessed with this illusion, how much we’re affecting the newspaper industry, people will listen and I don’t want to talk about myself.  So, I will talk about what other people are doing, which are really moving things ahead, regarding journalism.
Rick:    So, forgive the next comment, but basically, you’re Dilbert.  You’re a Dilbert who decided to make a difference in the world.  I mean, maybe you didn’t start out with a grand vision, but you are making a difference in the world.  
    What would you say to all the other Dilbert’s out there?  Specifically in the world of technology, who are jaded and feel that they are, you know, lost in the endless seas of cubicles.  What advice would you give to them?
Craig:    If you’re stuck in a cubicle and you’re skilled, you may do better freelancing.  But, in whatever they…whatever people do.  Again, just try to treat other people like you want to be treated and that will work out pretty well for you.
Rick:    So, then, as a final question, what’s your vision?  What’s your vision for the world?
Craig:    I have no vision.  I just keep plugging away with what feels right and that works.  That works pretty well.
Rick:    Craig, thank you very much and Happy New Year.
[music]
Craig:    Thanks.  You take care.
[music]
Rick:    And to you, all listeners.  Thank you again for listening.  We hope you join us next week for, yet again, another exciting pod cast feature.  
    For leaders, doers and change agents in the conversation of doing well, by doing good.
    To learn more about the triple bottom line, please visit us on our website at www.thereblogging.com.  That’s T - H - E - R - E - Blogging.com.
    This is Rick Mavrovich and thanks so much for listening.
    Cheers!
    
 
 
Tuesday, January 2, 2007
therepodcast
there.podcasts featuring:
  1. thought leaders
  2. doers
  3. and change agents
  4.  
in the conversation of “Doing Well By doing Good”.
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